An Exclusive Interview with Jackie Glenn, former Chief Diversity Officer of EMC Corporation, Dell and founder of Glenn Diversity & HR Solutions.

Jackie Glenn is the former Chief Diversity Officer of EMC Corporation, Dell, author of Lift as I Climb: An Immigrant Girl’s Journey Through Corporate America and founder of Glenn Diversity & HR Solutions.

Jackie’s adaptation to American culture as an immigrant from Jamaica helped her cultivate skills and insights that uniquely qualified her to lead EMC’s efforts to create a diverse workforce and an environment that would retain top talent from around the globe.

On her journey, Jackie identified 10 critical behaviors or ‘gems’ that all organizations must practice to create a truly inclusive environment that enables diverse teams to thrive.

In this interview, we were honored that Jackie shared 4 of her 10 “gems” with us.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

  • The need for authenticity
  • The importance of open feedback
  • The true value of resilience and empathy

Listen in above (cc available), or read below the transcript of our interview with Jackie. You can also listen on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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FIONA: I’m your host Fiona Young and I run the diversity inclusion and belonging practice at Hive Learning, the collaborative learning app for enterprises. Our guest today is Jackie Glenn who’s the founder of Glenn Diversity Inclusion and HR Solutions and before that was the VP of Global Diversity and Inclusion at Dell EMC. She’s been named as one of the top 10 influential women in diversity by diversity global magazine and her remarkable journey from a young Jamaican immigrant to a leading executive in corporate America has inspired her latest autobiography “Lift as I Climb”. Welcome, Jackie.

JACKIE: I am so happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Fiona.

FIONA: Thank you. So can you start off by just giving us a quick overview of the work you’re currently doing at Glenn diversity and HR solutions and what you’re trying to achieve?

JACKIE: So I am actually just continuing the work that I did as a Chief Diversity Officer at EMC and then vice president of Global Diversity at Dell EMC. So, I think your listeners might want to know my journey. So I’ll start off by just saying that for almost 16 years I was the Chief Diversity Officer at EMC and we got acquired by Dell computers and I stayed there for two years and just recently left last July and did a few things and so one of the things I did after leaving Dell EMC was finishing writing the book that I’ve been writing for many years, “Lift as I Climb: An Immigrant Girl’s Journey Through Corporate America”.

We’ll talk a little bit later about the book itself but I started Glenn Diversity Inclusion & HR Solutions because I wanted to make sure I continue the work that I was doing in corporate America but really targeted more small to mid-sized company that doesn’t have a chief diversity officer. So I like to think of myself as a chief diversity officer in residence. So I go out to corporation. I help them think through their strategy. I help them look at their organization and audit areas that they think they might need some help in, and I give them strategic advice and what to do with their business research group.

What are some of the network externally that they can become a member of and just anything and all things. I touch on all of the dimensions of diversity when I go into an organization and the first thing I do is really sit with them and really think about you know what are you doing right now and where do you want to go and what do you think is your opportunity here.

Once they tell me I do my own audit, of course, with their approval, come back with some findings and then start to help them implement the strategies that they think would work best in their organizations. So I’m going to stop right now. So that’s what I’m doing. It’s really different because it’s a two-person show, myself and my assistant and a couple of freelance consultants, but love love love doing the work that I’m continuing to do the work that I’ve done for the last 20 years.

FIONA: Wow. Congratulations on making the shift and also on publishing your book – Lift as I Climb. So today I’ll be chatting with you loads more about that and I think before we get into the learnings from the book, I just wanted to ask you something that we ask all of our guests on Inclusion Works. So can you tell us what personal experiences made you aware of inclusion and diversity issues and led to your work in this space.

JACKIE: You know I would be disingenuous if I said I was always I you know I grew up thinking about being a diversity practitioner and couldn’t wait to getting started. Actually in the US they call it was voluntary to take this job and so I started my career out in HR and while I was doing HR one of the things that I always tell people that are new to their career journey you know to think broad, so I took a job with EMC the technology company as a director of HR and while I was doing that I was helping them to think through their diversity but that was my side volunteer job and so years after helping them build out some of their ERGs and just volunteering to help with their diversity initiative.

My boss’s boss asked me to take the job as chief diversity officer and Fiona believe it or not, I said no. I said no and just sort of you know there’s a saying that if you said no to your boss’s boss, it’s career suicide and so I know and then I said I’ll think about it and it took me weeks and weeks and weeks for him to call me and I finally decided to take the job and I think sometimes the moral of the story is Fiona, sometimes people see things in you that you don’t see in yourself and now when I look back at my journey into this field and how I agonize with my own self-doubt and things that I thought people would be thinking about me that was my own doing.

Sometimes people see things in you that you don’t see in yourself and I always say to people that are much younger in their career than I am, “sometimes you have to go with it”. So fast forward I took the job and I will say Fiona that one of the reason why I said no is that I was in a technology company and there was not a lot of tall black woman with an accent and so I was one of few, if not the only one and I really didn’t want to be the person who was coming in and telling these guys to do diversity because it would seem very — I felt that it would be very self-serving and so that was my thing.

I didn’t want to be the tall black woman doing diversity, but anyway I ended up taking the job and it ended up being the best best best best thing I ever did for my career and so that’s how I got into diversity. To even add a little bit to that because I didn’t want to take the job, I had a boss at the time. As she encouraged me to try it out she said to me,” Why don’t you just do it for 18 months?” I’m not going to be able to do anything for 18 months. That’s a year and a half and once I delve into it and start doing it, 18 months came right around the corner.

And I went into our office one day when I was having a great time and I said it’s my 18-month mark and she looked up at me, sort of startled and said, what do you mean by that? And I said, remember you said to take the job for 18 months and she said, “please don’t tell me you’re going to quit” and I said, “no, I just wanted to point out how quickly the 18 months flew by and I’m having a great time”.

And so that’s how I got into the position and I stayed there Fiona because I have two daughters. I have a couple of granddaughters and I really do believe that as a woman of color and an immigrant that my work isn’t done just because I’m not in an organization anymore and so work continue more even more now than ever. The work is so important.

FIONA: I totally agree, and I know you’ve said before that you were motivated to emigrate to the US from Jamaica to make a better life for yourself, to live the American Dream. Obviously, as an outsider you’ve certainly achieved that but in general do you think the American Dream is within reach for most immigrants?

JACKIE: Yes, I do believe it’s still within reach for most immigrants and you know when you read my book, I talk about hard work and I really am not inferring that people won’t work hard but I believe that you know not just immigrants but for immigrants I think we all know the value of a hard day’s work and I think that if anyone comes here from another country and they get the opportunity and I want to underscore that because with everything that’s going on in the world today and in society and with all of the rhetoric around, immigrant and where we come from and what we bring and what we do not bring.

I think what we bring to whichever country we migrate to is our discipline and our hard work for the most part and so I do believe that companies are smart enough to recognize when they see someone and see that someone has potential and is working hard and so I do believe that the American Dream is still achievable. It might look different and it might feel different from when I came here which was umpteen years ago, but I still believe it’s achievable.

FIONA: I love how your book is organized around 10 gems of wisdom you’ve picked up throughout your career and so I just wanted to start by running through them for listeners before we [inaudible] some of those. So the 10 are in this order; authenticity, self-awareness, boldness, responsibility, faith, empathy, flexibility, integrity, resilience and trust.

So just to start with the first one, so authenticity. It really resonated with me. I personally believe there’s a sort of flywheel effect with authenticity and inclusion. So you need an inclusive culture to start with. An environment that embraces differences, encourages people to bring their authentic selves to work, all those great things and then that authenticity which is oftentimes paired with vulnerability, in turn, builds up to levels of psychological safety and inclusion in a team. So what guidance would you give leaders just getting started on their D&I journey. How can you begin to build inclusiveness in small and big ways to encourage that kind of authenticity?

JACKIE: I think that you know when I look at your question, the first thought that come to mind when I think you said something in your question about you know the environment being right in order for people to be authentic in their at their place or in any situation they find themselves and I read the question and I asked myself that.

Keep the dialogue open to demonstrate interest in difference

When I went into different organizations for the first time people were curious. The good managers would be very curious about who I am, my upbringing, you know what makes me tick you know my background and I think you know when people realize that you’re interested in their background, they are more inclined to bring their authentic self to work but let me stop a little bit to make sure I am…

So I think there’s a lot of dialogue that needs to go and a lot of times people are afraid especially leaders to really say you know Jackie I hear an accent there and you know it’s such a beautiful accent, can you share with me you know where you’re from or even over lunch or I had a great boss who would open every staff meeting with someone to say a little bit about themselves that no one would know by just looking at them.

And so I think that within itself allows people to show up authentically and you know,

Who I am and even with my accent and all that I speak to a lot in the book. When I show up even if I might be mispronouncing a word or not sounding out my age or not as you guys in London would say speak in the King’s English. I think for the most part people would understand me and I feel like I don’t have to put on airs and it’s so much more relaxing and I get a lot more done when I show authentically.

I would speak a lot more to that but I think that you know my advice to people that are junior in their career to people like my daughter that are young millennials is to you know,

“Come to the workplace and really be proud of who you are – as a woman of color, as a person with disability, as a person in the LGBTQ community, as a Muslim, as whoever you show up and show up proudly and I think that’s a start of being authentic.”

FIONA: Thanks. I love your advice of you know really just getting super curious about people you’re working with and I think this definitely goes for leaders to sort of exhibit this behavior that they want to see but I think it goes for everyone in the organization, right. To just be more curious and go deeper rather than just having like a water-cooler chat about what you did over the weekend, those sorts of things.

JACKIE: Fiona I want to underscore the curiosity part. It’s not the route because I’ve gotten some inquiry that I found to be really offensive or downright rude where people would meet me in there like where are you from and I’d say Jamaican. That said, do you smoke a lot of ganja and marijuana-like excuse me, no not everybody in Jamaica you know smoke ganja. So why do you have to ask me that? Is that or do you or are you going to put voodoo on me? That is craziness and so curiosity is wanting to know you know the person’s background, just tell me a little bit that you love about your country. What’s so special, I’d love to go visit Jamaica. Tell me what’s the best place. What’s the national food – the dish, things like that but not things like or you know people would say to me which is always nice you know I love Bob Marley and reggae music and stuff like that. So curiosity in a good way.

FIONA: And those kinds of comments you mentioned also just loaded with problematic assumptions, right? Yeah, it’s yeah it’s really—I mean they’re really like microaggressions.

JACKIE: Yes, and I get that so much that now I’m at a point in my life where I can I use them as teaching moments and I would say you know, “I know that marijuana is called ganja in Jamaica but I’ll tell you the island every single person on the island does not smoke too much to your contrary and that you think we do, everyone does not”. And I use it and I use it bias implicit unconscious bias and as you say microaggression because why would you think just because I’m from a Caribbean country, I smoke marijuana and do voodoo, you know black magic [laughs].

FIONA: I think that’s a really nice way to respond to a microaggression, like actually let’s use this as a teaching moment, let’s not, you know feel horrible but… So going back to your book and the gems, in your second gem which is self-awareness, you talk a lot about the importance of asking for feedback and you also tell a pretty powerful story about feedback that you received once. Some people on your team felt intimidated by you and funny enough when I read this it really resonated because I once got feedback that I’m not approachable which I think is just another flavor of being intimidating. Do you have any tips for how to build up a feedback culture in your team where people feel like they can challenge their boss and also their peers without the fear of having their head bitten off?

JACKIE: Yeah, when I think of the word feedback, I think of you both receiving it and giving it out and I don’t know if we could find anyone who loved to get it to receive feedback unless it’s a great feedback but when the feedback is not so good what I always tell people is that you know I was I do a lot of executive coaching and that’s part of Glenn Diversity and HR Solutions and I always tell my leaders your delivery. And so Fiona I don’t know about you but you know I show up very strong very confident, know who I am. I’ve had years and years to build up my confidence and to know that what I do and what I’m good at and so sometimes when you show up like that and you’re leading people you have to understand that people can mistake your confidence for just being brash and not considerate and so I have worked over the years and I would implore upon managers to really think about your delivery, even if you have to roleplay with someone about how do you show up and how do you deliver, especially when it’s not so good news.

So the first would be how do you deliver the feedback and you know I was just talking to a friend of mine as I saw your question about how, I was always told when I was just becoming a new manager to always sandwich every negative feedback with something positive, but you only do that if you’re genuine. So I can’t come, you know, by the way you know you did a good job of you know with the last podcast but let me tell you the other one was horrible, you know that is just not the way how you sandwich.

And so if you’re really if it’s not genuine and it’s not coming from a genuine place then I wouldn’t go with that but I would just go with my delivery and you know I like to roleplay so I would say something like you know Fiona you just finished doing this podcast. This is about your fifth one. I know you’re new to the organization so can you spend some time and just tell me how are you feeling about it. And then you will tell me what you feel and I say, “would you be okay with me sharing my insights on a little bit more insights on some things that I’ve picked up over the last five” and usually people said sure and then I would go into you know, “here’s what I think you do well. Here’s what I thought you could do a little better. What do you think about trying this? I know you’ve thought about this before but you might want to just implement it a little bit more.”

So you’re giving the feedback but you’re also recognizing to the individual that you know that they can do it and you hear them and just making it not oh you did this wrong and that wrong and that one but more of a collaborative style whereas and here’s what I think and what do you think about trying that.

I remember I had a boss and I really liked him a lot and he always said to me – maybe you haven’t thought about this as yet, but what do you think about this? And honestly, if you know sometimes, I never even thought about it but the fact that he gave me the benefit of the doubt or he humored me to say I think you might have thought about this or if you thought about this adding this to it and so the delivery when you give feedback, people said feedback is a gift but not everybody looks at it that way.

Also receiving feedback from me it took me years and years and years and years and still to this day receiving feedback is really hard. A lot of times when people are receiving feedback especially if it’s negative because everyone wants good feedback. They are quick to get defensive. I know I’m like that and so my advice would be just listen, do not interrupt the person, but you can ask after the person has finished giving you the feedback. You can ask, clarifying any questions and I don’t know if I said this if you’ve got this part but I always ask okay so if people are afraid of me, what am I, what behavior am I exhibiting when people get afraid of me and then they might say well you’re yelling and then I always say, “can you give me an instance when that happened because I’m really honestly trying to probe around where and when and what was the situation”.

So I asked a few clarifying questions, another tip that I gave it but at the time of the feedback you feel that it’s just a lot and you’re very emotional about it and you’ve taken it a little personal. It’s okay to say I’m going to say thank you for the feedback. I’m going to think about what you said and maybe at a later time, we can talk a little bit more about it. Don’t try to solve the issue because what I find out is that it’s just become a bit of a derailleur in the conversation especially the person is in a place where they’re not able to hear.

And so it’s a good thing to listen, to ask question to you know reschedule a second follow-up and just keep probing and a lot of times I get feedback and I ask the person who’s given me the feedback of my leader, can they ask the individual if I can talk to them, just so I can get a good insight into you to know what was the thing they were offended by. What was the situation and if need be, Fiona I can apologize because I have no problem doing that.

So you know there’s a saying out there that feedback is a gift and I think as a woman and a woman of color and when you’re in an organization where you’re in the minority, there’s not a lot of people like you, people get very afraid especially if you’re managing someone who is different from you whether or not you know it’s a male or female or you have someone an underrepresented minority in the organization or someone that might be in a protected class. Managers get so afraid of giving them feedback and I’ve seen this time and time again because they don’t want to be called racist or that they’re being discriminatory against them.

My advice to any manager that’s listening, you have to have to give feedback and if you don’t know to do it well, go to HR, practice and then put yourself in the individuals shoes because what I found was really hard for me Fiona was that I would beg people to give me feedback and I think it is important that if you’re going to take on a leadership, a management role that you know how to give the feedback to no matter who is in your organization.

FIONA: Absolutely and giving feedback evenly is so important because, of course, it’s feedback that helps us to thrive within our role, right and to take that next step and as you say when you don’t give that feedback evenly to people who are yes more like you who you’re more likely to tell me where and whatever as well as people who are different than you then you’re kind of in a very unconscious way I’m sure. I think a lot of leaders are probably disadvantaging those who are different than them.

JACKIE: Yeah, you are because you know then you show up into a review and they’re telling you all these things that no one told you about it before, so you’re blind-sighted and no one ever wants to be blindsided and you just hit on a really good point because I would talk to the manager and they would say to me you know Jackie I don’t want to talk to Fiona because I don’t want her to say I’m discriminating against her because she’s the only woman in here or the only person black person or brown person, but I think it’s important as you said that there is sort of an across-the-board feedback given no matter who you are and I think for managers that will help them to be able to say that you know you’re an equal opportunity manager, so everyone gets feedback. Not just the people that look like you.

FIONA: Yeah. And one of the things you just said about feedback I thought was great as well is just you know really put yourself in the other person’s shoes like that role play as well as really having empathy and actually your sixth gem is empathy and so I wanted to ask you a bit more about that. In your book, you write about how you felt like most leaders you’ve worked with have lacked empathy and that’s probably because the path they’ve taken is so different than yours. So can you give us some practical tips on how to build empathy for others especially across huge differences and background or upbringing so forth?

JACKIE: Yeah, you know there is a simple way to build empathy for others is I think of this old notion or old saying is putting yourself in somebody else’s shoes and even though the shoes might not fit perfectly because I might wear a size 10 and you wear size seven but you know just sort of kind of do a role reversal and if that was me, how would I want to be treated. So I think that’s the first thing empathy and I think I’m when you’re in organizations where you are the only one or you’re one of two is even harder for people to understand how it would feel and so I think manager could do a few things. It’s just the things you know, what if I went to a country and I was the only person there that looked like me and I described and survive or you know what if this was my daughter or when we talk about the word diversity a lot of my male allies have daughters and I think once their daughter get into the workplace a lot of them have a rude awakening around, you know would I want my daughter to work here?

And so when I think of empathy, I think of what can I do to be supportive and support it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to solve it because if you read in my chapter on empathy, I spoke to a situation of someone who worked for me who sent her daughter to Columbia for the summer, who had never gone away from her parents before and I’ve never met her family in Colombia and really you know sort of kind of as kids do, add a little bit of meltdown not being near a parent and when this particular individual came in to speak to me about it, I just know that if that was my daughter because I happen to have two daughter, what would I do?

So, I just asked a couple of questions, you know what can I do for you? I’m here for you. How can I be supportive? And even sometimes when you ask, how can I be supportive? You’re showing empathy. You might not know what you do and support could look like just listening Fiona. Just listening, say I’m here if you need anything or support can be empathy can be around just throwing out some ideas.

And one of my idea was we have an office in Columbia, would you like to go there and work and then you know you’d be close? And she was just amazed, and it worked out and so I think especially in this climate that we are in the world empathy is a competency that I believe that anyone whose going to take on a leadership role or job in any organization needs to focus on, to be able to judge the empathetic meaning. Just listen, support. I always when I terminate people in HR when I was an HR practitioner and especially because I worked in the salesforce, I always have to do it with a lot of guys and I always said if this was my husband, how would I wanted him to be treated and I’ve gotten a lot of accolades and feedback on the way I do it and so you have to show empathy even in tough situations.

FIONA: Yeah, it’s a great advice and I love that powerful question, how can I be supportive? Putting it out there I want to be supportive and so to move on to your ninth gem which is resilience, obviously there’s so much has been written about resilience and it’s such an important characteristic and I thought this story that you told was really really powerful. Could you share that story with our listeners and talk a bit about how you found the strength to carry on despite the circumstances?

JACKIE: [laughs] So my ninth gem on resilience, I start off by framing it around. I do believe that you know in life things come your way and a lot of the things are not so good and what I found that a lot of times people are so quick to throw in the towel Fiona and just give up. And so I always say to people,

‘It’s in the midst of your pain or in the midst of being uncomfortable that you become comfortable.”

You come out of it with a lot that you can use going forward. And so I wrote in the book about a situation when I worked where I take this job as chief and you know I had the title but I didn’t have it with my peers. I didn’t have the VP title and I would go to my boss and I was asked over and over again about getting that title and I would get a lot of different responses but never yes, and then I would see people that have less experience, less tenor, less responsibility getting promoted and I remember just sitting on my desk and really drawing on my faith which is one of my gems and believe in that at some point it would work out and if not if it didn’t work out I was going to get a signal when I was to throw in the towel but it was not yet.

And so I did a lot. I asked for feedback which I explained. I asked for you know a coach whatever I could do to get it and then we had a change of guards and I’m paraphrasing here Fiona because I want your audience to go pick up the book and I don’t want to boil all of it then there won’t buy it, but I really sat there and asked a lot of question. Whenever I’m going to my boss for one-on-one, I would say what am I doing right. Where do I need to improve upon and the thing was you know a lot of times I wouldn’t really get much direction but I continued to act and I believe in this saying that my mom always say this to me, God rest her soul, she’s gone.

So I’m a big proponent for asking for things. Doesn’t mean you’re going to get it but ask and feedback comes out the same way and so I would ask ask ask and at one point in this old resilient journey, I got a new leader and the new leader asked me how I was doing and I said something to the effect that I’m sure she knows how I was doing and she said, there are always two sides to the story. Come see me.

Fast forward I went in and I only I didn’t go in crying and weeping and be negative because I don’t believe in negativity. I went in and I had formed three questions. Why am I not promoted? Why I’m not a VP? Why is my salary below my peers and what is the verbiage out there on me and what I can what can I do to be better to get this promotion and she looked at me and said, “Jackie, I don’t have an answer for you, but I’ll check it out.”

And fast forward I waited and a couple of months later she came back. I got my promotion. I got my salary fix and you know the feedback was the same thing, people are afraid of you. People you know think you’re a bully and you know if you know me the furthest word you used to describe is a bully but that’s how they felt and so I had to take that personally and really try to show up less forceful. And so I’m still you know I said I’m a tough boss. I don’t reward mediocrity and I never will in life.

I think you have to earn your limit and company pays you a salary because they want you to work and so if people want to get a gold star and they’re not doing gold star work, I’m not the boss for that and I think a lot of times when you push people and tell people no, this is not what I want, bully has become a word that gets thrown around a lot.

So, you know I’m always willing to do a self-awareness audit which is also one of my gems and check to see where did I go wrong, if I need to apologize. What do I need to do but I always stay resilient. My faith is a big part of my resiliency. So whatever as a listener you believe in use it, because there were many a day that I had to go into the ladies room give myself a good cry, say a quick prayer pull it together and come back out and work and so whatever your belief system is used and use it well because it can help you stay resilient.

FIONA: That’s brilliant.

JACKIE: And I know you read this story Fiona, so I hope I didn’t blast over it too much but you know it’s definitely a story that will always stay with me and I have coached and counseled a lot of leaders on how do you stay resilient, but also get what you want and get what’s rightfully yours.

FIONA: Absolutely and what really struck me about it too is it’s like you know as you said I’m not going to go and weep and cry or you go in there and make a fuss. Actually, I’m going to go in with three really kick-ass and productive questions like why didn’t I get a promotion? Why is there not pay parity here? And what can I do about it and that’s exactly the kind of approach the measured and also really thoughtful on a productive approach you need to take to get what you want, you know.

JACKIE: And Fiona I think somewhere in the book I talked about don’t go in with air say. Do your homework, do your research and go in with fact. So, when I went with those three questions, I was going with things I knew about, not oh by the way Fiona got 50 and I got 10. No, go in with fact. Don’t go in with air say and be very very deliberate. Go in, ask the question and shut up and then you’ll get your answers. And you know someone might say to me, Jackie what if you go in and ask the question and they don’t have an answer? Keep asking the question.

FIONA: [laughs] Exactly. Don’t give up. Oh, I love that. So just to finish off, what is one simple thing that anyone could do this week to build inclusion in their workplace?

JACKIE: I think you know – a dialogue. If you say we’re out of time, Jackie so I just want one thing dialogue and dialogue with people who look different from you and so let me expand upon that a little bit more Fiona. A lot of times you know this old notion of sameness is real. If I ask Fiona show me your contact list, most of your contacts would probably looks like you and the same goes for me, but I’m always mindful and pushing leaders to dialogue. Get curious around you know Jackie tell me a little bit about your background, who you are. Want to go to lunch? Want to grab a cup of coffee.

I think that the lack of conversation and dialogue with people that are opposites and curious you know a healthy curiosity for different demographics. You know I’ll end by saying when people talk about DEI; diversity, equity and inclusion and also belonging, one of the things I did when I first started is to make sure that I wasn’t just focusing on two-dimension of diversity, which would be gender and race, but I looked at the entire spectrum of the iceberg and so I was very curious for the disability in ERG and the LGBTQ ERG. So I would take people out to lunch, sit with them and people are always willing to talk about their affinity and why it’s important and you learn so much.

So dialogue could tell me a little bit about the LGBTQ community. Let me understand about transgender, reassignments and gender identity disorder. Tell me about people with visible and invisible disabilities. Why are you so passionate about it. I think when people started dialogue Fiona, you learn so much and it really if you can really dig deep and suspend your bias and just listen because we all are bias as a friend of mine Howard Ross always say,

Bias – it’s like the air we breathe.

And so if you suspend that suspend judgment and just dialogue you will eventually get to a place of inclusion. It’s one pillar on the journey to having an inclusive workforce but it’s an important pillar.

FIONA: Thank you and thank you so much for sharing all these insights with us, Jackie. It’s been fantastic and I’m sure there’s a lot for our listeners to take away from this session too. If anyone listening wants to stay connected with you what’s the best way for them to do that?

JACKIE: The best way for them to do that is to LinkedIn with me @jackieglenn, I am also launching my website this week, it’s going to be, they can LinkedIn, they can you know we’re in London so they can send me oh I’m so technologically I have to look it up but WhatsApp me and then they can send me an email. It’s my name turned backwards Glenn Jackie with two n G-L-E-N-N- and Jackie J-A-C-K-I-E- three, the number three, my true name is Jacqueline but J-A-C-Q-U-E-L-I-N-E- so if you see anything online Jacqueline Glenn that’s me and it might be 20 different air styles but it’s still me, and of course, you know my books, Lift as I Climb, I want Fiona to underscore the subtitle @ Immigrant Girl’s Journey Through Corporate America and I know we didn’t get to talk about the immigrants side of me but the book also featured 10 immigrants from all over the world and I think it’s an amazing read and a quick read as that.

FIONA: Yeah, and I love that global perspective too. It’s really well worth all the listeners picking that up and we’ll link it in the show notes as well. So, thank you so much Jackie, it’s been wonderful.

JACKIE: It’s been wonderful. Thank you for having me and I hope that as everyone listens to the podcast, they walk away with a nugget that they can use going forward. Thanks.

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An Exclusive Interview with Jackie Glenn, former Chief Diversity Officer of EMC Corporation, Dell and founder of Glenn Diversity & HR Solutions.

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